Convertible flex (sag)
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This is a question for Bill Allbright, Dave or Nick Sollon, Ken Shulte, Dennis in NY, or anyone else that's restored a stepdown convertible. Its probably a dumb question, and may solve itself as time goes on, but since I don't know the answer yet, I'll ask it anyway.
When you strip a stepdown convertible to the bones, and brace up the doors, and body with tubing to prevent deflection due to it being weakened by removing all the bolt-on body panels, do you build in a slight difference from top to bottom in the door frames ( say -- maybe 1/8 inch, to allow for possible "sag" when the body is being reassembled, and the motor-trans is back in etc., and the car is supported once again by its own springs, axles, and wheels ?
Right now, both doors on my '53 are "pinched" at the top, and the gap is somewhat wider at the bottom, so either the doors have sagged, or the body has sagged somewhat. I know I could brace up the doors laser straight while the body is being restored, but what happens when the bracing is taken out again and the doors are re-hung? Will the sheer weight of body and doors produce some slight sagging again, and result in "pinched" doors at the tops once more ?
Maybe you just build the door frames nice and parrallel, (vertically), and hang the doors with the gaps as perfect as possible, and that's that -- or do you plan ahead before you weld everything back together again ?
Like I said, probably a dumb question, but it won't be the first one I've hatched, and definately not the last one !
silverone.
When you strip a stepdown convertible to the bones, and brace up the doors, and body with tubing to prevent deflection due to it being weakened by removing all the bolt-on body panels, do you build in a slight difference from top to bottom in the door frames ( say -- maybe 1/8 inch, to allow for possible "sag" when the body is being reassembled, and the motor-trans is back in etc., and the car is supported once again by its own springs, axles, and wheels ?
Right now, both doors on my '53 are "pinched" at the top, and the gap is somewhat wider at the bottom, so either the doors have sagged, or the body has sagged somewhat. I know I could brace up the doors laser straight while the body is being restored, but what happens when the bracing is taken out again and the doors are re-hung? Will the sheer weight of body and doors produce some slight sagging again, and result in "pinched" doors at the tops once more ?
Maybe you just build the door frames nice and parrallel, (vertically), and hang the doors with the gaps as perfect as possible, and that's that -- or do you plan ahead before you weld everything back together again ?
Like I said, probably a dumb question, but it won't be the first one I've hatched, and definately not the last one !
silverone.
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Comments
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As no one has answered you yet, contemplate this: you might want to take it to a frame shop & have the geometry of it checked.
I don't want to be an alarmist but heard of a '54 conv. that was restored back east in the "Rust Belt" & following restoration was taken for a test drive. When driven across a r. r. crossing, the frame buckled as is was rotted!.
At a National I was "eyeballing" another step down conv. & Jack Miller came up to me, asked me what I thought of it, & after I complimented the car & restoration, he opened the drivers door, lifted up the carpet, and I saw GRASS!0 -
If the doors line up fine as a pre-test and you are worried to the stress of the frame, you can weld a piece of metal say 4 iches wide by five feet long across the outer frame which would be covered by the rocker. Will add much support if you suspect the frame being weak. Some people jack up the outer frame under the door to were the door fits nicely then you can weld metal across the outer frame as I stated above.0
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There are no dumb questions.... it's dumb not to ask any.
If you have access to an airport maintainance x-ray machine you can scan the car and check it for stress cracks like they do on aircraft.... outside of that I've heard of guys jacking up convert frames and welding pieces of angle iron to the outside of the offending area to brace and reinforce the frame. Since they taint makin no more I suppose this isn't a horrible practice if you plan on keeping the car.0 -
I would hope one of the people mentioned in the initial request provides a better answer, but the doors on all two door stepdowns sagged after a number of years. I have had a few including a convertable. If the frame is solid it is my belief that the weight of the doors has caused them to sag. just my two cents worth.
Fred0 -
Thanks Fred. Sorry My answer was not worthy0
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To check and see if it is frame sag, remove rocker panels and look at frame. If sagging, jack until level with doors and quarters in place. There is an inner frame and outer. If outer frame is ok, you have to cut away outer frame and repair inner first. Use angle iron for added support.0
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Thanks Guys, I see what's probably going to have to be done by your replies. Welding in some angle iron kind of goes against the grain though, on such a well crafted body ( that is, before rust came into the picture ), because even if it can't be seen when the rockers go back on, I'll still know its there, and be thinking about them every time I'm driving the car.
I think I'll probably try to reinforce the original stiffeners in the same way the factory would have done it if they discovered the rails needed some more "beef" across the door openings. Hopefully,once the welding is done and the primer is on again, any repair-upgrade will dissapear and my conscience will be clear once more.
My objective for this car is show class # 1, so even what can't be seen will have to be as close to perfect as it gets !!
The target date for its first serious showing is the 2010 Nats. Hopefully I can make that happen.
silverone0 -
Silverone-
I've asked this very question to many a Hudnut, as I am also in the middle of my resto, as you know. Mr. Maas' answer is by far the most common "solution" that has been given me. In all fairness to originality, said 4" plate could easily be welded on outside of perimeter frame and left a little long, or hanging down 1/8" or so and then grounded off to meet the bottom of the frame. Once it is sanded and painted, really, probably only 50 or so knowledgeable Hudnuts would even notice it, if they were to get under the car and look up there. Personally, I like this idea better than the angle iron, which might be more of an eyesore, but again, only if you were to get under the car.
One point to consider: is this a #1 restoration for your own benefit, or do you plan on showing at the Concours d'Elegance? If the former, don't lower your own standards, but do realize that you are dealing with 1/2-century old, fatigued metal and a little compromise will go a long way. If the latter, let the frame sag where it wants and trim the doors to fit . . . you're not going to drive it anyway.
2 cents worth-
Russell0 -
silverone wrote:Thanks Guys, I see what's probably going to have to be done by your replies. Welding in some angle iron kind of goes against the grain though, on such a well crafted body ( that is, before rust came into the picture ), because even if it can't be seen when the rockers go back on, I'll still know its there, and be thinking about them every time I'm driving the car.
I think I'll probably try to reinforce the original stiffeners in the same way the factory would have done it if they discovered the rails needed some more "beef" across the door openings. Hopefully,once the welding is done and the primer is on again, any repair-upgrade will dissapear and my conscience will be clear once more.
My objective for this car is show class # 1, so even what can't be seen will have to be as close to perfect as it gets !!
The target date for its first serious showing is the 2010 Nats. Hopefully I can make that happen.
silverone
My reference to using angle iron is on inner frame. You can then weld 16 gauge plate on outer frame and gring welds and it won't show at all. I did this on our 54 convertible and you can not tell where it was patched when it is up on rack. Somewhere, I have pictures of entire process.0 -
Sorry Dave . . . no offense meant. The angle iron just brought up images of some of the hot rod frames I've encountered from friends, where angle iron, half-butt hinges and gate hasps were welded to the frame for God knows what. I know that's not what you had in mind, though.
Silverone- don't listen to me, listen to Dave . . . he's been there done that too many times to not know what he's talking about.0 -
RL Chilton wrote:Sorry Dave . . . no offense meant. The angle iron just brought up images of some of the hot rod frames I've encountered from friends, where angle iron, half-butt hinges and gate hasps were welded to the frame for God knows what. I know that's not what you had in mind, though.
Silverone- don't listen to me, listen to Dave . . . he's been there done that too many times to not know what he's talking about.
I don't get offended. I'm no expert, just learning as I go. That's the way I did it on the only convertible I restored with a bad frame.:)0 -
Would be interested in the pics if you come across them.0
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For what it is worth... My 1950 Pacemaker convertible was mired in the bed of an Oklahoma river for years. The fact that it was under the surface kept it from rusting. The doors on that car did not fit from the day I got it. The doors eventually were replaced with donors from a later Hollywood. When comparing the doors I noticed the hinges in the Pmaker appeared to be warped or bent. I put them into a oven and after heating them beat them flat again. The hinges on the Hollywood doors showed similar distortion but not as pronounced. Recently a post here showed how to inspect door frames and weld up fatigue cracks... this brought back memories of the header on the convertible. Not only were the hinges warped... the header hinge points were bent out of shape and cracked. These were repaired... the door facings at each hinge point repaired and reinforced. The door sill was checked for flatness... amazingly found flat and then the doors reinstalled. NO PROBLEMS ... the frame did not have to be touched. So there are lots of things to consider when trying to align the doors. My guess is when the frame integrity is good... NO RUST. The door alignment problems usually souce to the poor hinge designe and the fatigue of a heavy door on the large opening. My experience for those who need it.
Happy Days0 -
RL Chilton wrote:Would be interested in the pics if you come across them.
Me too Dave !! And I particularly like the idea of welding the stiffener inside the frame ! I guess I was thinking along the same lines as Russell when it comes to some of the horrible patch jobs I've seen done over the years by careless owners.
The plan is for a #1 resto, Russell, but probably not concours. I'm sure you'd agree hudsons are too nice to drive to make them into "trailer queens". Having said that though, you wouldn't find me out on the highway in the rain and muck with a car done to that calibre. If the car were not capable of jumping in, firing up and driving at any moments notice though, then I'd have failed in my quest to do the car justice, at least in my eye.
Guess I gotta have my cake and eat it too !!
Ryan (silverone)0 -
silverone-
I knew you and I were on the same page when it comes to driving them. Be sure to follow up on Ken's advice as well. Hudsons notoriously have bad fitting doors and like he said, if there is no rust in the frame, you very well could have a problem with the door hinges. Remember, the two-door models have longer doors than the sedans. Subsequently, they are heavier and create more load on a poorly designed hinge.0 -
It might be worth noting that there are are a few convertables out there that have been "made" by adding convert parts to coupe bodies, which did not have the reinforced frame.0
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Rod wrote:It might be worth noting that there are are a few convertables out there that have been "made" by adding convert parts to coupe bodies, which did not have the reinforced frame.
Rod-
Yes, that is worth mentioning, absolutely. But, doesn't apply to this thread, as I know Silverone does not have a post-factory converted coupe. It is an original convertible.0 -
silverone wrote:I know I could brace up the doors laser straight while the body is being restored, but what happens when the bracing is taken out again and the doors are re-hung?
You should find that your convertible doors have a factory internal cross brace from the top front corner to the bottom rear corner. This will enable you to fine adjust the shape of the door to suit the shape of the opening.0 -
im with ken, if you find that the frame comes up to spec (its all in the 48-54 body manual) check where the lower hinges mount to the doors. i had been going a little nuts trying to figure out why my doors where sagging- they have all cracked around the hinge mounting area. my intended fix is to jack them up to the correct height and then tack weld the cracks to hold steady for final work after removal from the car. (the lower 6" on all the doors are toast too)0
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half baked wrote:im with ken, if you find that the frame comes up to spec (its all in the 48-54 body manual) check where the lower hinges mount to the doors. i had been going a little nuts trying to figure out why my doors where sagging- they have all cracked around the hinge mounting area. my intended fix is to jack them up to the correct height and then tack weld the cracks to hold steady for final work after removal from the car. (the lower 6" on all the doors are toast too)
Thanks Guys --- this thread has been very helpfull in giving me the confidence to tackle the job !! I'd have dove in anyway, sooner or later but it sure helps to have a little advice from those who been there, or done that, and are willing to share the experience the've acquired.
Yeah, I know they say, no pain - no gain, but I'd rather get the pain somewhere else where its a little easier to fix !! These convertibles look like they're gonna be a lesson all their own.
silverone0
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